Covid. Time to stop the bleeding before it’s too late.

[Old Fart]

What are your solutions to the issues? Without understanding the science in advance, what would you have done to in advance to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of the world populations while keeping the economy running at full steam? What do you know that the best scientists in the world don't know?

Albert, you are wasting your breath on these guys. They have no solutions and do not care about solutions. They are concerned ONLY about their (or should I say there lol) wallets. No one is restricting anyone because you and I know the resourceful and the willing are making money in other ways. Factories have re-tooled to make things that are currently needed and stopped with those that are not moving. Individuals have found other ways to make money too. One here even said, they want the government funds even though they do not qualify. No one bothers to save anymore, in fact the opposite, they spend money they do not even have because they are spoiled. They want even though they cannot afford. Meanwhile you and I pay for their bankruptcies.

As far as knowing more than scientists?? Hell, these guys do not even know their own language

You cant suspend the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and isolate citizens because you claim their MIGHT BE a threat to their well-being.

but yet they try to convince us that they can do a better job running the world. They do not know the difference between their, there and they're but they can run the universe LOL. Too funny. They are rednecks that still want to fight battles on the streets (and in a parking lot like one of them here lol).
Yes, we may have made poor choices in the people we chose to lead us but the people who complain about government the most are the ones who need it the most to protect them from their (maybe we should try 'they're' here) own stupidity. Then people complain about ones "tone of rebuke" but how do you talk intellectually to country bumpkins who only care about themselves not society as a whole, to people who don't care if old people, children or others die as long as the numbers are 'reasonable' and it is not their ass getting buried?

All you can do my friend is protect yourself from these kind and be thankful they are not the ones running the country. I'd love to be 'a fly on the wall' if they let the whole world die while covering their own ass and then wonder why they are not making any money being the last redneck standing. Seriously, how do you respect that? They claim to be able to run the universe but they can't even go without one pay cheque without financial disaster.

 

[Rubmegood]

You can subscribe to the political health officials who have INTERPRETED the WHO recommendations into a full scale lock down, or you can dig into other acclaimed doctors, scientists, and virologists who have been working with real statistics since February.

In my opinion this comes down to the WHO who were shamed when they didn't declare a pandemic with the swine flu. They didn't want to be embarrassed again with covid so they bowed to peer pressure and declared a pandemic which sent the world into panic and paranoia mode.

 

[Albert Johnson]

Most Canadians are Communists. So, to them, having the govt rule over their lives is a dream come true.

You may be on to something. In hindsight part of me wishes I had not cancelled my trip to Vietnam before they closed the boarder. To date there have been less than three hundred fifty infections in Vietnam, mostly imported from other countries. Zero deaths. Why? Because as soon as they anticipated the magnitude of the problem they declared a pandemic emergency and locked down, and I mean locked down the whole country. When they started to reopen businesses they again locked down parts of a city or whole cities to stop the spread and protect the citizens if even one infection was found. If people were caught breaking quarantines they were arrested on the spot and in some cases hunted down to find them. Families reported their family members who ignored quarantines. Why? For the greater good. Ninety five million people with less than three hundred fifty infections, no deaths and very few complaints from the citizens. In less than three months Vietnamese citizens were back to work and are free to drink and party in relative freedom on Bui Vien Street in Ho Chi Minh City and the Old Quarter in Hanoi. No one young, old, infirm, with cancer or diabetes were treated as disposable and allowed to die. I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam and 95% of the time you would not know you are in a Communist country. But the other 5% gives solid reminders. That is Communism.

On the other hand, Our government is a Democracy with socialist tendencies. This allows citizens to live beyond their means then bitch and moan when they lose their expensive toys that they couldn't afford in the first place and then bitch and complain about their rights being violated, and debating whether people who are old, or diabetic, should be treated as disposable and allowed to die. That is Socialism you are defending.

Less than 2,000 traffic fatalities were recorded in Canada during entire year of 2019. Who knows how many of them were old or had diabetes and should have been considered disposable. 5782 people, almost three times the number that were killed in vehicle accidents have died of the Corona virus in two and a half month with the trend not slowing. That is a pandemic.

WEM is open. Take a walk through the malls. My non scientific survey of walking through the mall yesterday is that likely 75% of the business have chosen not to reopen yet. There is a reason for that and it likely has nothing to do thousands of workers and business owners wanting to stay home and collect benefits.

You are likely right that our governments did not handle this correctly, but our socialist society would not have supported the Vietnamese model. Then again they are back to work and we will be in this situation for a long long time.

 

[sleeker]

Let’s all be honest here - this thread is lame.

 

[m694ever]

soon to be deleted as many other doctors scientist and economists posts have. And OF this doctor is in you demographic. Pay attention To the New York statistics.

 

[Ursus]

As far as knowing more than scientists?? Hell, these guys do not even know their own language but yet they try to convince us that they can do a better job running the world. They do not know the difference between their, there and they're but they can run the universe LOL. Too funny.

A typing error is your argument against my valid points?

So, wiping out 1 Trillion dollars in economic wealth (at least) is OK with you? And you dont see it as a problem when govts forecast budget requirements down the road? As long as you can point out typing errors or grammar mistakes etc., that's all that matters to you?

You have shown your lack of honesty, or your lack of intelligence, with your response.

And what is with your statement of 'have found other ways to make money'? Say that to the 30 million people who died of Famine under govt control of the economy during Mao's reign in China.

 

[Ursus]

You may be on to something. In hindsight part of me wishes I had not cancelled my trip to Vietnam before they closed the boarder. To date there have been less than three hundred fifty infections in Vietnam, mostly imported from other countries. Zero deaths. Why? Because as soon as they anticipated the magnitude of the problem they declared a pandemic emergency and locked down, and I mean locked down the whole country. When they started to reopen businesses they again locked down parts of a city or whole cities to stop the spread and protect the citizens if even one infection was found. If people were caught breaking quarantines they were arrested on the spot and in some cases hunted down to find them. Families reported their family members who ignored quarantines. Why? For the greater good. Ninety five million people with less than three hundred fifty infections, no deaths and very few complaints from the citizens. In less than three months Vietnamese citizens were back to work and are free to drink and party in relative freedom on Bui Vien Street in Ho Chi Minh City and the Old Quarter in Hanoi. No one young, old, infirm, with cancer or diabetes were treated as disposable and allowed to die. I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam and 95% of the time you would not know you are in a Communist country. But the other 5% gives solid reminders. That is Communism.

On the other hand, Our government is a Democracy with socialist tendencies. This allows citizens to live beyond their means then bitch and moan when they lose their expensive toys that they couldn't afford in the first place and then bitch and complain about their rights being violated, and debating whether people who are old, or diabetic, should be treated as disposable and allowed to die. That is Socialism you are defending.

Less than 2,000 traffic fatalities were recorded in Canada during entire year of 2019. Who knows how many of them were old or had diabetes and should have been considered disposable. 5782 people, almost three times the number that were killed in vehicle accidents have died of the Corona virus in two and a half month with the trend not slowing. That is a pandemic.

WEM is open. Take a walk through the malls. My non scientific survey of walking through the mall yesterday is that likely 75% of the business have chosen not to reopen yet. There is a reason for that and it likely has nothing to do thousands of workers and business owners wanting to stay home and collect benefits.

You are likely right that our governments did not handle this correctly, but our socialist society would not have supported the Vietnamese model. Then again they are back to work and we will be in this situation for a long long time.

Do a calculation of the lives lost in Canada from the shutdown. Not Covid19, but the shutdown. And please dont say 0.

Govt spends about 250 Billion on Healthcare each year. Shutdown will wipe out at least 1 Trillion in wealth over the long run.

That's 4 years of healthcare budget lost forever.

How many people will die?

If depositing CERB into half of Canadians accounts made up for lost production, then why hasnt North Korea realized this answer to their poverty issues?

 

[bigbill]

Utilitarian ethics are easy when you're sure you aren't going to suffer a poor outcome. Which you aren't, but I suppose in your mind, you are truly safe, or perhaps you don't care?

Why is Canada having to go into debt by $300B? Because for 40 years we've decided to "trickle up" in terms of wealth. The wealthiest 41 Canadian individuals have $240B that's sitting idle, doing nothing. They can't buy enough yachts or houses, so the bulk of their wealth sits, contributing nothing to society. Add in a just a handful of corporations that have overflowing treasuries thanks to low/no corporate taxes, and Canada has over $1T (yes, trillion) that's been taken out of the economy and is doing nothing.

Working class Canadians have generated more than enough wealth over the last 40 years to pay for all the services they've ever wanted, plus have a government with a serious reserve to help people through hard times and to have every person with real savings. We decided that creating billionaires was more important to us.

 

[Guy2013]

Utilitarian ethics are easy when you're sure you aren't going to suffer a poor outcome. Which you aren't, but I suppose in your mind, you are truly safe, or perhaps you don't care?

Why is Canada having to go into debt by $300B? Because for 40 years we've decided to "trickle up" in terms of wealth. The wealthiest 41 Canadian individuals have $240B that's sitting idle, doing nothing. They can't buy enough yachts or houses, so the bulk of their wealth sits, contributing nothing to society. Add in a just a handful of corporations that have overflowing treasuries thanks to low/no corporate taxes, and Canada has over $1T (yes, trillion) that's been taken out of the economy and is doing nothing.

Working class Canadians have generated more than enough wealth over the last 40 years to pay for all the services they've ever wanted, plus have a government with a serious reserve to help people through hard times and to have every person with real savings. We decided that creating billionaires was more important to us.

Bill,
Unfortunately you start off with an assumption that wealth is a national resource, something that is incorrect and frankly naive. Wealth is a private resource generated by individuals and corporations and that status must be maintained for a nation to flourish. Suggesting that private capital has been "taken" out of the economy is ludicrous, it was earned and freely traded by individuals for goods and services. Ownership of that capital was voluntarily transferred generally to the benefit of both parties involved.

While its not perfect the capitalist system has lifted more people out of poverty than any other. If you doubt that, simply show me a socialist country that has a higher general standard of living than North America. People often disparage the "1%" as the root of all evil, but to put things in perspective the average Canadian is part of the 1% globally. heres an interesting statistic
Over 1.9 billion people, or 26.2 percent of the world's population, were living on less than $3.20 per day in 2015. Close to 46 percent of the world's population was living on less than $5.50 a day.

Yes, working class Canadians have generated a lot of wealth over the last 40 years, but certainly not enough to pay for all the government services they want. Want proof, simply look at the massive debt that virtually every level of government in canada has accumulated trying to be all things to all people. Frankly if these same governments hadn't pissed away so much money buying votes over the last 40 years we might have had a sufficient war chest to carry us thru the current pandemic.

 

[Old Fart]

A typing error is your argument against my valid points?

LOL, I even gave you a 'like' for your humour. Please, that is not a TYPING error. That is not knowing the language, that speaks to your credibility, pretending to know more than experts but not even knowing the basics of language like when to use simple words such as 'there, their and they're'. Yeah , I know, I am supposed to know what you mean. LOL.

You have the nerve to question MY intelligence?? How can we trust your "intelligence," your "facts," your figures etc. which you try to shove down our throats when it is clear you do not even know simple grammar...WITCH 'there, their or they're to use'?
You don't know grade 4 grammar but you know post graduate science? Yeah, right !!! That is rich. Thanks for the laugh.
Learn grade 4 grammar and then maybe I will have more confidence in YOU'RE "knowledge" in regards to the study of viruses, politics and economics.

You know what is really sick? Some of you are sitting there comparing this to the flu, saying it is OK if "only" X number of people are dead, you do not want to put off getting YOU'RE willy whacked just to save a couple of lives, it's OK if some people die because they were probably going to die anyway (or do you prefer anywayS) and how wrong people like me are because we are trying to curb this virus and prevent deaths. You use "facts" and "figures" to TRY and proves us wrong but yet I point out a simple fact, one that we learned in elementary school and YOUR all thinking I am an ass. Do you not realize how stupid that is?

DUH...I can't right inglish rilly gud but I sher can tell you about viruses an bugs an shit and I sher no how two run a cuntry bettr than them they're guys in Otterwa and I shir am a xpirt in them their sience things.

Anyway, don't worry about my tone. Stay tuned, I am sure THEIR will be a comment telling me how wrong I am, again.

 

[bigbill]

Wealth is not exclusive to individuals. We can hold it collectively, and we've used collective wealth to create the most prosperous periods in human history. Pretty much every technological and societal advance was created using pooled resources.

This brings us to the question: where is wealth actually created? Media like the Financial Times have often claimed – like their neoliberal originators, Friedman and Hayek – that wealth is made by entrepreneurs, not by states. Governments are at most facilitators. Their role is to provide good infrastructure and attractive tax breaks – and then to get out of the way.

But, reference the work of economist Mariana Mazzucato. Unlike neoliberal parrots that simply regurgitate old theories, she rolls up her sleeves and does research.

In her book, Mazzucato demonstrates that not only education and healthcare and garbage collection and mail delivery start with the government, but also real, bankable innovations. Take the iPhone. Every sliver of technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone instead of a stupidphone (internet, GPS, touchscreen, battery, hard drive, voice recognition) was developed by researchers on a government payroll.

And what applies to Apple applies equally to other tech giants. Google? Received a fat government grant to develop a search engine. Tesla? Was scrambling for investors until the US Department of Energy handed over $465m. (Elon Musk has been a grant guzzler from the start, with three of his companies – Tesla, SpaceX, and SolarCity – having received a combined total of almost $5bn in taxpayer money.)

The reality is that economic growth in the post WW2 era has been driven by society collectively levering it's resources. Government services are not nebulous nothings that have nothing to do with the economy. They're goods and services that are purchased through a collective means to be more efficient. It makes no sense for each person to build their own roads, hospitals, schools, and on and on. So we buy those things, just using a "group buy."

The sum of service costs is far below the GDP generated in the economy, and the logic that we can't pay for services because governments are broke makes no sense to me, There's plenty of money being produced in the economy, so where is it going? Not to wage earners, they have no savings. Not to governments, they not only have no savings, they're in debt. As are a large percentage of individuals. So, where the hell has it all gone? Look into income and wealth disparity and you'll see. As I noted, the wealthiest 41 Canadians have over $240B that's sitting idle. It's not pretend money, or a made up number. That's $240B that was siphoned out of the economy and is now unproductive.

There's more than enough economic activity in Canada (and the rest of the developed world) to pay for the services we want, we just need to stop allowing a small group of people hoard all the wealth that's being generated. Massive tax breaks for the highest incomes and the wealthiest people were supposed to generate economic prosperity through "trickle down." Trickle down is a complete failure, and it's the zombie lie that must now die permanently. As a young economist in 1980, I was being fully indoctrinated to the theories, but by 1990, research had shown it to be failing. That's 30 years ago.

 

[Wills_willie]

WOW. I am so impressed with the discussion going on here. And I thought we were just a bunch of horndogs looking for that somewhat elusive HE massage. Who would've guessed.

 

[m694ever]

WOW. I am so impressed with the discussion going on here. And I thought we were just a bunch of horndogs looking for that somewhat elusive HE massage. Who would've guessed.

We are just horn dogs but this covid silliness is cutting into table time big time. Time to get back to body slides, outrageous extras, and good old happy endings

 

[Guy2013]

Bill,
I can't argue with some of what you say, but it totally ignores an important consideration and one that allowed Apple to piece together bits and pieces of government research and turn it into something that revolutionized mankind.... I am speaking of a basic human drive, GREED. If we left it up to the government we would still be struggling with ARPARNET and what we currently know as the internet would not exist.
Unfortunately when it comes to taking research and turning it into a consumer product, governments have no concept on how to get out of park. You refer to Google, trust me it was not the government that took a basic search engine and turned it into a license to print money. The boys are Google were brilliant in monetizing what they had and they did not do that for the public good, they did it to make money, that takes us back to greed (call it ambition if it make it easier to swallow).

Governments have there place, but it is certainly not operating business.

 

[bigbill]

That's why we have a combination of government and private industry. It's not a coincidence that the most prosperous nations in the world use a combination of large scale governments that work with a private industry system. Find any nation with "tiny government" and a lack of infrastructure and regulation and you'll find anarchy and poverty.

The problem that we have today is that society invested heavily in these businesses, not only directly with grants, incentives, etc, but as well through infrastructure. Business in the developed world has thrived thanks to heavy investment in transportation systems, telephony and communications, education, health care, and on and on. Government plays an essential role in spending contrary to the business cycle to dampen the boom/bust cycle (though not in Alberta, ugh).

So, businesses like Google and Apple thrived thanks to massive amounts of government intervention and investment in many forms, and then took all that generated wealth and sent it to tax havens and now it sits there, doing nothing. What is the point then? Those two companies alone have hundreds of billions of dollars that sits idle. I'm not saying we shouldn't have companies like these in existence, but they built these massive profits by using our money and we need to reap the rewards. This used to be through corporate taxes, but then the wealthy lobbied for massive reductions and eliminations of corporate taxes using the spurious argument that it would lead to job creation.

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. This has been empirically studied time and time again over the last 40 years, and in terms of job creation, corporate tax cuts are far, far down the list of incentives that work. People equate corporate finance to their chequing account and household budget. True, if you got a tax break, you'd have more money to spend. But, that's not how corporate taxes work. In Alberta, the UCP gave hundreds of millions in corporate tax breaks in 2019 alone, and it resulted in few, if any jobs. Most companies just sucked up the cash and did stock buy backs. Why? Because they didn't need more money. They already were profitable (hence the extra cash generated by the tax break, companies earning less than $500K in profits pay little or no tax at all) and just didn't have any projects worth investing in. So, the result was a huge wealth transfer from working class Albertans to a few corporate treasuries and the shareholder of those firms. So, even though we all invested, only some of us got to benefit.

Thinking about the crisis we have now, we have not one government in Canada, not federal, provincial or municipal that is economically prepared to weather the storm. Why not? The response most heard is "governments spend too much on services, so they're broke, and now look." Why do they "spend too much on services?" And now we hear about over-paid teachers and nurses and rich social workers and wealthy bus drivers and rich street cleaner staff. If we adopted the tax rates that were in effect during the period that Peter Lougheed was the Premier, Alberta would have no deficit. Even with the collapse of the oil business and the current recession. Why not? We'd have had a ton of surpluses during the boom years and we'd have money in the bank. Decades of tax cuts have left governments and the working class dead broke.

"But we can't raise taxes, I am already broke." Yes., The tax burden has been shifted dramatically onto the middle class. Regular working stiffs now pay a much larger percentage of the taxes raised by government than in the past. "But we can't raise corporate taxes or tax the wealthy, that'll lead to job loss." Nope. Some of the most prosperous periods of history had much higher tax rates than now. We keep cutting taxes on the promise of sustained full employment and it never comes. When do we realize that we've been duped and stop listening to this bullshit?

We are more and more building a society that works for only a few. The net benefits only go to a very small number of people. The kicker is that they've convinced us the problem is that we don't work hard enough, or the poor are sucking up all the money, or immigrants are stealing the jobs, and so on. We fight against each other and ignore who has really taken everything.

Now, before you cry "communism" I've not once espoused any extreme position, and have stated clearly that the system of government intervention and private business can be made to work well. It just needs to be working for the majority of the people.

 

[Deleted member 72001]

Can only sit back and count the ever increasing number of paragraphs You both add and can’t help thinking none of it matters right now.
Now, If you were both in parliament? I’d tune into CSPAN for that debate!!.........or I’d go get a rub and tug.

 

[distinguished.gentleman]

 

[Albertaman]

Well, enough has been spent on advertising telling you as to how to go an apply for your CoVid benefits. Albert and OF, carry on , your cheques are in the mail.. pardon me, direct deposit. And glad that all of us warriors have done our brave part in saving humanity. Greta, on the other hand would have been pleased if the virus had cut population down by at least 10% to help our greening efforts. As for income distribution, no disagreement, higher taxes should apply, but not at incomes below $500k per year. And there should be life time capital gains exemption up to $2- $4 million, excluding principal home. No reason that government workers should have guaranteed indexed pensions when other people don't. As for the super rich, many in the US have already said that they agree that their taxes need to be much much higher.

Some keep referring to health experts, but the truth is that many so called health experts are divided on current situation. There is no way Tam as a health expert is in the same league as Sweden's lead epidemiologist. But some folks here love their welfare cheques.. the Quebec model works in Alberta too. No wonder the province is royally fucked. Good Night all.


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[Old Fart]

 

[Old Fart]

No reason that government workers should have guaranteed indexed pensions when other people don't.

Go work there if you want THERE pension, if you qualify for the job.
These "other people"...They pay into a pension and don't get it? If they pay into a pension plan, no reason they should not get one too. If they don't pay into one, no reason "other people" SHOULD get one.
It's a free country. Go work where you feel you will get what you want.
If not, go to another country. Don't see anyone here screaming for you to stay. Fuck man, go where ever you want if you really think it is that much better.